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Ched Evans and Oldham Athletic

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Ched Evans and Oldham Athletic

Postby Mike the Dagger » Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:02 pm

What are they smoking I wonder?

Seems like the threat from sponsors to walk away has been negated by a guarantee from his girlfriend's father to cover any financial loses resulting.

Football, "The Beautiful Game"!!!

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/ched-evans-has-served-his-time--and-other-misconceptions-about-the-convicted-rapist-footballer-9957849.html
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Re: Ched Evans and Oldham Athletic

Postby rechitski kinzhal » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:39 pm

Maybe they, like me and many other people, are finding this "Twitter" campaign that seems to want Evans to go straight to hell somewhat tiresome. I may be wrong Mike, but the tone of your post indicates you agree with the "never again on a football pitch" mob. We have argued before about whether he really is, or is not, guilty - but at the moment he is guilty. If these people who will not allow him to get some semblance of life back were really so angry about the punishment he received they should have complained about the original prison sentence. It is not for the Twitter mob to decide on punishments.
Let us say he actually is guilty (which in law he is at the moment) - the question I would like to raise is "can our fans really believe that what he did is so much worse than what one of our players did last year that would warrant our player being allowed to walk straight back into football, and that Evans should never play again? There are some that will say that the girl in the Evans case has gone through a terrible time (and I would agree, although that is not so much about the actual incident, but what followed after) ...... but do you not think that the victim of the Partridge assault ( and, more than likely, the victim of his two previous assaults) has gone through a terrible time. However misguided Evans may or may not have been on that night, he must surely never have meant to have caused anyone distress (Lee Hughes, and the Plymouth goalkeeper, both acted terribly, but neither went out to cause anyone harm). Partridge, on the other hand, is clearly a violent man with a strong likelihood of reoffending. Yet we have Evans subjected to a campaign to never play again, Hughes and the Plymouth player, able to play again but subject to continued abuse, but Partridge walks straight into our team with nothing said more than a few messages of disapproval by Arnu and myself and very few others.
Utterly absurd.
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Re: Ched Evans and Oldham Athletic

Postby Mike the Dagger » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:43 am

This makes interesting reading.... http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/ched-evans-has-served-his-time--and-other-misconceptions-about-the-convicted-rapist-footballer-9957849.html

Most definitely if he turned up at the Daggers at the moment I'd be voting with my feet.

The Partridge situation is a tricky one and not really in the best interests of our "family club" image, but is not on a par with a conviction for rape IMHO.
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Re: Ched Evans and Oldham Athletic

Postby ARNU » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:16 pm

I struggle to see why he should be allowed to return to any kind of work.Ex-cons who do things far less serious have a very difficult time getting a shit job let alone one as a pampered £20k a week footballer.(aint really work is it?)

I worked at a place once where it was found out one of the other members of staff served time for sexually assaulting his 6 yr old nephew.he assured us it was all in the past and he was a changed man however after puking and restraining ourselves we refused to work with him and they had to let him go.You make your own bed.Maybe that was wrong,maybe we should have sent a reference to Plymouth Argyle and they could have taken the beast on as crèche manager or something.

I see it quite simply.Some crimes are unforgiveable.You commit them you suffer the consequences.You don't walk straight back into a position of responsibility, where being a roll model and public persona is one of your duties.You forego your rights to that lifestyle when you carry out a crime of this magnitude.
Manners are not a weakness.
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Re: Ched Evans and Oldham Athletic

Postby davei » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:02 pm

Arnu, while I do not know the man nor do I know the intricacies of his case, some years back for a week I was on a jury for a rape trial. Trust me, it is not always as cut and dried as you may think, as in "innocent girl goes out and gets preyed on by stranger". And, a few years back while discussing a somewhat dubious rape trial here in town with a lady I worked with, she said to me "I came from a time where NO meant YES". Go figure.

Regardless of that, he was found guilty, served his time and has been released back in to society. Are you now suggesting he should never work again plying his trade, which, if you are, he would then go on the dole or welfare and continue to be a burden to society. And I do not for one minute buy in to the argument he is, or could ever be seen as, a role model to some kids because he's kicking a football.

If you are suggesting he should NEVER play football again because of what he did, then perhaps you should start writing as much venomous comments against someone like, say Tony Blair, who continues to make millions of pounds giving speeches around the world and at the same time has been hired as some kind of a Middle Eastern "peace maker". Where were those dastardly weapons of mass destruction anyway, and how many lives were lost as a result of looking for them. And while I see the point about the 6 year old being abused and people not wanting to work with the perpetrator, in this case, the victim was not an innocent 6 year old.

As well, a few years back, some guy said something about who ever has done nothing wrong start chucking rocks, or something like that. Here is an interesting article I found that may make you think a bit differently:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/columnists/r ... hed-evans/
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Re: Ched Evans and Oldham Athletic

Postby TomMc » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:57 pm

davei wrote:Regardless of that, he was found guilty, served his time and has been released back in to society.


He hasn't served his time, he's out on licence (ie any indiscretion then he goes back to prison for the rest of his sentence, currently two years.

He's a convicted sex offender, who doesn't think he's done anything wrong and whose father in law is paying for a website that tries to discredit the victim.

His conviction would stop him being a director at a football league club, why should he be allowed to still take part as a player?
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Re: Ched Evans and Oldham Athletic

Postby davei » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:33 pm

Tom, he is out of prison, back in the community and, if he behaves himself he won't go back, right. Whether he does any more "prison time" is entirely based on his future actions.

And unless you can show me, nowhere do I see that he has applied for a directorship at any football club so there is no relevance there, he's applied for a job kicking a football. And in case you are unaware of this, many people who come out of the slammer after serving time for a variety of offences, also apply for jobs back in their selected trade or, in some cases, outside their trade.

"He's a convicted sex offender" currently under appeal. Wouldn't be the first verdict to be overturned on new evidence.
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Re: Ched Evans and Oldham Athletic

Postby TomMc » Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:14 am

No, he's still serving his sentence, just not the custodial part. He's under a number of restrictions for the rest of his sentence, including not being able to travel abroad without special permission from his probation officer.

Your usual patronising stuff in the second paragraph. I'm aware of that, however certain professions aren't allowed to do so (doctors & teachers, or professions that have contact with children, for example).

I notice you ignored the bit about his father in law/family's behaviour.

No, he lost his appeal. His case is being looked at by the Criminal Case Review - completely different, only a tiny percentage of case get overturned in this way.

I believe everyone should have a chance to rehabilitate and rebuild their lives. But Evans and the people around him's behaviour has been abhorrent. And until he actually sees that he did wrong then rehabilitation can't begin.

I also don't see why the only profession open to him is to be a professional footballer, unless it's just because it's his highest earning potential.
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Re: Ched Evans and Oldham Athletic

Postby rechitski kinzhal » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:16 am

Just a couple of quick points, Tom.
When you say Evans is still serving his sentence, you mean "he is still serving his sentence, just like that violent thug we have in our team, who was able to walk back into football with scarcely a word against him". Ask Partridge's victim what he thinks of that.
Of all the people likely to lend support to Evans, I can't imagine a less likely person than his future father-in-law ..... a man who, with his daughter, has been dragged into this horrible and humiliating case. Maybe he, being actually at the trial, saw and read things that made him utterly and completely convinced this is a miscarriage of justice. You were not at the trial, presumably, so are going on the things that have been written. I assume you have also read the "pro-Evans website" ...... they come up with some vey interesting points, which I must assume as true or one of the "anti-Evans" brigade would have raised the issue by now if it were lies.
I do not know whether Evans is guilty or innocent. What I do know is that there are some very uncomfortable things underlying the whole case.
Thank the Lord you have never been accused and found guilty of a crime you did not commit. I have, and although it was one of the most innocuous of crimes, the bitterness I feel will never go away. Suddenly I saw things differently, and I realised how naive I had been to believe that the justice system in this country is fair.
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Re: Ched Evans and Oldham Athletic

Postby TomMc » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:49 am

rechitski kinzhal wrote:Just a couple of quick points, Tom.
When you say Evans is still serving his sentence, you mean "he is still serving his sentence, just like that violent thug we have in our team, who was able to walk back into football with scarcely a word against him". Ask Partridge's victim what he thinks of that.
Of all the people likely to lend support to Evans, I can't imagine a less likely person than his future father-in-law ..... a man who, with his daughter, has been dragged into this horrible and humiliating case. Maybe he, being actually at the trial, saw and read things that made him utterly and completely convinced this is a miscarriage of justice. You were not at the trial, presumably, so are going on the things that have been written. I assume you have also read the "pro-Evans website" ...... they come up with some vey interesting points, which I must assume as true or one of the "anti-Evans" brigade would have raised the issue by now if it were lies.
I do not know whether Evans is guilty or innocent. What I do know is that there are some very uncomfortable things underlying the whole case.
Thank the Lord you have never been accused and found guilty of a crime you did not commit. I have, and although it was one of the most innocuous of crimes, the bitterness I feel will never go away. Suddenly I saw things differently, and I realised how naive I had been to believe that the justice system in this country is fair.


As I've already said in this thread Eb, I was against Partridge signing and still am, and yes, he is still serving his sentence until, I believe, April. He also plead guilty.

RE The point about me not being in court to hear the testimony first-hand - you seem to be suggesting that my opinion is invalidated by the fact I wasn't there at the trial and am only going by what I've read that's been reported, yet (and I'm presuming you didn't attend the trial either) you go on to say you've read a third-party source that gives weight to your opinion - do you see the contradiction?
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Re: Ched Evans and Oldham Athletic

Postby Mike the Dagger » Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:10 am

As Tom satates, Evans has already had an appeal rejected by the Court of Appeal in November 2012, the current legal process is a case review which is highly unlikely to change the verdict. The appeal verdict is here: https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans. Go have a read. The appeal summary gives the details of the case and how the court approached it pretty succinctly.

Evans admits going to the hotel and having sex with the woman involved having been summoned there by Clayton McDonald, who had texted him to say he "had a bird" after picking the girl up on the street, very drunk at well past 3am. The "bird" was somewhere between very drunk and willing and totally out of it and therefore unable to give consent to sex which is pretty much the decision the jury had to make. Evans actions that night are somewhere between these two extremes:

- he made his way late at night to a hotel (after 4am), blagged his way to getting the night porter to let him into the room (which he had booked and paid for in McDonald's name) and had his mates sloppy seconds with a drunken girl he had never met before who consented to sex and later changed her mind

to

- he made his way late at night to a hotel (after 4am), blagged his way to getting the night porter to let him into the room (which he had booked and paid for in McDonald's name) and had his mates sloppy seconds with a drunken girl he had never met before who was in no fit state to consent to sex

The jury of his peers decided that it was the second of the two and therefore found him guilty of rape, which was upheld on appeal.

Neither are very edifying or say much positive about Evans. Quite why the father-in-law is so supportive now is a mystery, if it was my daughter he had publically let down in any of the scenarios above I think I might well be kicking him the balls rather than paying for him to get back in to football out of my own pocket. Of course, the world of WAGS is a mysterious one where once you have your hooks into a potential footballer you don't let them loose for little things like them being caught shagging a granny or simiiar.

On a final point here, I am a qualified cricket umpire and part of being able to do that is that I have to be CRB checked every three years. Evans conviction means he could not do that, or coach youth football, be involved in the scouts/guides, teaching, medicine and a multitude of other things, including being a director of a football club apparently. Yet it seems it does not stop him from kicking an inflated plastic bag round a field while being paid vast sums to do so and potentially plastered over the walls of kids bedrooms in team photos etc.

No one is saying he can never work again here, just that some offences are career ending in any profession, and rape ought to be one of those in football.
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Re: Ched Evans and Oldham Athletic

Postby rechitski kinzhal » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:03 am

Just for clarification, Tom, I was certainly not suggesting my point is more valid than yours. Just the point that (as Mike alludes to) the potential father-in-law was at the Court and seems convinced of a miscarriage of justice*.
This discussion will never end simply because the Court decision WAS wrong. On the basis that the girl was too drunk to give consent then the other player must be guilty as well because she would have been more drunk, rather than less drunk, when he had sex with her.
As you may have gathered my "opinion" is that this whole case seems to be based on well-intentioned nonsense. Surely the majority of men are now rapists, and the majority of women now rape victims, simply because we may have been intimate with our partners after a couple of port and lemons!!!!!!! Are we going to see a drink-intimacy limit similar to the drink-drive limit, because otherwise we will have Court decisions made on what a jury thinks, rather than based on any facts.
Are breathalysers to be made available at night clubs so we can be sure our potential lovers are capable of consent?
This country is still regarded as a free country, yet legal precedent has deemed that it is now an offence for anyone to have sexual contact with an intoxicated person, despite the fact that a lot of people like to be intimate after drinking. The aims are certainly laudable, the practicalities are complete nonsense .......... in my opinion.
* Notwithstanding that I do accept Mike's point about acceptance by some people of a players misdemeanours with a prostitute old enough to be his granny.
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Re: Ched Evans and Oldham Athletic

Postby Mike the Dagger » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:42 pm

rechitski kinzhal wrote:This discussion will never end simply because the Court decision WAS wrong. On the basis that the girl was too drunk to give consent then the other player must be guilty as well because she would have been more drunk, rather than less drunk, when he had sex with her.


The jury was instructed to consider the two verdicts separately.

It was noted that the woman in question had been drinking vodka heavily shortly before leaving the bar sometime close to 3am. As I recall (its been a while since I drank a lot of spirits) it does take a while for that sort of drinking to hit the system, so it is not inconceivable that she was "ok" of sorts when she got in the cab with McDonald (lthough she was drunk enough to fall over in the pizza shop, leave her handbag there, and the hotel night porter stated in evidence that she was very drunk when she arrived at the hotel) but be totally out of it an hour or so later when Evans turned up.

it seems that the jury felt that the act of her going back to the hotel with McDonald was implicit consent, whatever the pros or cons of that might be. Evans however turned up some time later, after the text message, which may have been an invitation to join in by McDonald (the prosecution case) or may just have been McDonald letting his mate know he was going back to the hotel so he knew he was ok (MDonald''s case).

rechitski kinzhal wrote:As you may have gathered my "opinion" is that this whole case seems to be based on well-intentioned nonsense. Surely the majority of men are now rapists, and the majority of women now rape victims, simply because we may have been intimate with our partners after a couple of port and lemons!!!!!!! Are we going to see a drink-intimacy limit similar to the drink-drive limit, because otherwise we will have Court decisions made on what a jury thinks, rather than based on any facts.
Are breathalysers to be made available at night clubs so we can be sure our potential lovers are capable of consent?


I actually make you totally correct in that men can be considered rapists on the flimsiest of evidence and the number of false accusations made after a drunken night out is a worry. For that reason, it is sensible for grown ups to take care what sort of state they get in, and what sort of state their potential partners are in, particularly if they have just met them, or in this case, just turned up at a hotel room at after 4am in the morning having never met the person before.

Evans at minimum acted incredibly stupidly (and highly imorally) in getting involved. At a maximum he actively took advantage of someone too drunk to object or do anything about it... i.e. he raped her.

rechitski kinzhal wrote:This country is still regarded as a free country, yet legal precedent has deemed that it is now an offence for anyone to have sexual contact with an intoxicated person, despite the fact that a lot of people like to be intimate after drinking. The aims are certainly laudable, the practicalities are complete nonsense .......... in my opinion.


And what the jury decided on McDonald is that the girl involved had implicitly given consent to sex by accompanying him to his hotel late at night and very drunk, hence the not guilty verdict.

She did not accompany Evans to the hotel, she had never met the guy. He blagged his way into the room and then had sex with her, very different.
Last edited by Mike the Dagger on Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ched Evans and Oldham Athletic

Postby Auntie Merge » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:16 pm

And what the jury decided on McDonald is that the girl involved had implicitly given consent to sex by accompanying him to his hotel late at night and very drunk, hence the not guilty verdict.

She did not accompany Evans to the hotel, she had never met the guy. He blagged his way into the room and then had sex with her, very different.

Mike the Dagger

And that to me is also the flimsiest of evidence. Say for instance that the other player had a conversation with the girl about "being up for doubles" and in her inebriated state she said yes, thus the texts to Ched, and why Ched turned up. What makes that rape?

To make it clear, I have never liaised with players in this way but way back when I was asked A LOT. I'd always be told what hotel the players were at when they stayed away 'in case I changed my mind'.

What I find the most disturbing about the case is that the girl didn't report rape to the police - she apparently reported the loss/theft of her handbag.
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Re: Ched Evans and Oldham Athletic

Postby TomMc » Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:17 pm

Auntie Merge wrote:Say for instance that the other player had a conversation with the girl about "being up for doubles" and in her inebriated state she said yes, thus the texts to Ched, and why Ched turned up.


Has that been suggested to be the case (for example, by McDonald?), or is it just conjecture?
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