Liverpool - the 96

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Paul from Barking
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Liverpool - the 96

Post by Paul from Barking » Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:51 pm

I certainly do have a lot to say about this but before I do (which will come in other posts, I'm sure) I just want to publicy apologise to the families and friends of the 96 and indeed to the people of the city of Liverpool for spending about 20 odd years of my life simply believing without question the sophestries and lies of South Yorkshire Police.

I am so very sorry for sucking up and believing the bulshit promulgated by the establishment.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Some people have said there has been justice for the 96. Not yet, there hasn't. It is NOT that the police made mistakes - every single one of us makes mistakes - it is that when they do, they excaerbate matters in a compound way by lying and lying and lying. A lie just beggetting a bigger and bigger lie.

I am angry with the police. Far less than the families will be - but angry with myself too that I, as a reasonably rational individual, got sucked into believeing their bullshit and just not scrutinising what they claimed. It is time to look at ACPO and the other police organisations and clubs, I think. This canot be allowed to happen again.

And once again to the people of Liverpool and moreso to the families and frinds of those who were lost. I am sorry that I believed without really questioning the claims and statements of South Yorkshire Police.

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Auntie Merge
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Re: Liverpool - the 96

Post by Auntie Merge » Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:44 am

I guess I'm lucky. I've always believed that they were football supporters, like you and I, excited about seeing their team play in an FA Cup semi final (OK, I don't know what that's like). I've posted this elsewhere, that every single time I think of Hillsborough I think of Sarah and Victoria Hicks, aged 15 and 19. Two girls who loved their football, like me (I was 22).
They were at Hillsborough in a stadium not fit for purpose. I was at Hayes v Leytonstone Ilford, standing on a crumbling terrace crowding round a portable radio from the moment the news came through that the game had been halted. After the game we went in the bar and watched it live on TV - everyone in the bar was crying. We all stood in silence, as the news of deaths came through, and the number kept going up and up. I think it was about 35 dead by the time we left to come home.

As a supporters club we sent the families £100 for their fund. That's what football supporters do in times of trouble; stand by each other.

It is good that you acknowledge the mistake Paul; some on other football forums still peddle in the lies.

I hope those who have suffered can finally get some peace.

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Mike the Dagger
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Re: Liverpool - the 96

Post by Mike the Dagger » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:57 am

Sorry, but....

The only thing that changed yesterday was that a jury decided the 96 were killed "unlawfully". The facts around what went on that day came out a long time ago, and the lessons learnt have been implemented in the improvements in stadium safety and policing that have been in place for years now.

Anyone that attended football at a decent level back in the 80s will know that there was a lot of idiots around who were up for a scrap, looking to cause trouble and willing to misbehave at the drop of a hat. The police reacted to that by treating everyone like a yob, whether they were or were not. The result, eventually, was Hillsborough, the perfect storm. An old fashioned stadium with little ability to get people moved to where they should be, fences to keep the "yobs" where they should be, police that assumed everyone was there for a tear up and were not experienced in policing major matches or even the stadium layout in some cases, a significant number of supporters that were happy to have a few beers and arrive late and shove in wherever they could.

As far as I am aware, the people that were killed were never accused of being anything but innocent victims of what happened late on close to kick off. Those that arrived late, with too much beer in them, with or without tickets (lets not kid ourselves all Liverpool fans were angels - Heysel) played a major part in what went on.

There is no excuse for the lies and cover up of what then played out, all of which has been exposed in the numerous enquiries over the intervening years, but lets just bear in mind that a Hillsborough disaster was pretty much inevitable looking back on it given where football was at that point in time.

Learn the lessons (done) and move on (please).

Paul from Barking
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Re: Liverpool - the 96

Post by Paul from Barking » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:28 pm

@ Merge: The reason why I offer an apology to the people of Liverpool overwhat happened there now is because I wasn't there at the time (certainly) and like a great deal of the rest of the country I just believed what I had been told in the media. Why should I have questioned what happened otherwise? Why, the police don't lie do they?

And to Mike: Why apologise now? It's a long time ago (as you implied). Well it was wrong 27 years ago but for 10, 15 or 20 years as a lot of this leached out to make me think about "inconsistencies". At exactly what point my view changed I can't exactly say - but that is why I, as just an ordinary bloke from the other end of the country, who did what all mothers teach their children - namely trust the word of the police think this is the right moment to say I have felt their pain for a fair while as this has come out but the moment is here to say I am sorry I believed the police's story.

Now, having explained that, and made my own personal public apology to the people of Liverpool explaining that I'd been brought up to unquestioningly believe the words of a policeman, with respect, Mike, it's time to hang the people responsible for this from the yeard arm and punish them heavily - and to pursue them relentlessly to do so - just like they would us. 96 people died because of their negligence and stupidity is bad enough (but human beings all make mistakes - I accept that).... it is the LIES over decades! I want to be able to trust a policeman again. And Jesus Christ, I can not be the only bloke in the whole God damned country taken in by the shit they (the police) told us at the time?????

The people involved in the cover up should all face the courts and be heavily, heavily punished. Not for the "mistake" - but for denying all of us the truth and exacerbating the suffering of the families by peddling lies about them and what went on.

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Auntie Merge
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Re: Liverpool - the 96

Post by Auntie Merge » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:33 pm

Mike, this is the first time I ever think I have disagreed with you.

If the families had moved on, none of what was decided yesterday would have come out. Yesterday was so much more than 'unlawful killing'.

And bringing Heysel up is a different matter entirely. Still blaming the fans and 'idiots', i see.

Accept the verdicts of yesterday and stop blaming the fans. There were severe miscarriages of justice here, not only the police lying but in the stadium being not fit for purpose. Everyone was let down by everything that was there to keep them safe.

It is for the families to decide when to move on; they have already gone some way to do that by saying that they will no longer be holding their annual public memorial at LFC. Some people will never be able to move on; Trevor Hicks when interviewed said for a long time he wondered what his purpose in life was, given that his daughters had died, he had no other children and his future role as a grandparent had gone too. Until the families say enough, they can make as much noise as they like. It is not for me to tell them when to stop.

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Mike the Dagger
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Re: Liverpool - the 96

Post by Mike the Dagger » Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:31 am

Auntie Merge wrote:Mike, this is the first time I ever think I have disagreed with you.

If the families had moved on, none of what was decided yesterday would have come out. Yesterday was so much more than 'unlawful killing'.

And bringing Heysel up is a different matter entirely. Still blaming the fans and 'idiots', i see.
Without people arriving late and pushing through the gates which were incorrectly opened by the police, there is no crush.

Without 20 years of a sizeable minority of idiots at football causing trouble on a regular basis, there are no fences, and therefore no crush.

Liverpool fans dressed their reputation up as "scally humour" but they were well known for attempting to get into games without tickets. Turning up late and rushing the gates to get them opened was a tactic of this.

As for Heysel, I suggest you go have this discussion in Turin.
Auntie Merge wrote:Accept the verdicts of yesterday and stop blaming the fans. There were severe miscarriages of justice here, not only the police lying but in the stadium being not fit for purpose. Everyone was let down by everything that was there to keep them safe.

It is for the families to decide when to move on; they have already gone some way to do that by saying that they will no longer be holding their annual public memorial at LFC. Some people will never be able to move on; Trevor Hicks when interviewed said for a long time he wondered what his purpose in life was, given that his daughters had died, he had no other children and his future role as a grandparent had gone too. Until the families say enough, they can make as much noise as they like. It is not for me to tell them when to stop.
I accept the verdicts of all the enquiries. I now can't have a beer at a football match although I can sit in the same seat at a rugby match or concert with a beer at Wembley. If I go to a higher league ground now, I generally have to sit down in seats mainly bolted unsuitably to terracing (like at Goodison) with the resulting lack of space and poor sightlines, where people generally end up standing anyway. That was the legacy of the Taylor enquiry as are all the new stadiums around the country.

It has been clear for years and years as a result of other enquiries into the tragedy that senior policemen made terrible mistakes on the day, that they tried to cover these up and that the people killed were totally inocent of anything other than getting there early to get a decent view. It was a tragedy, it was a terrible accident. No one set out to kill 96 people. If you think the people that made those bad calls have not had this on their conscience every day since then I would suggest you are wrong.

Lessons have been learnt and going to football after Hillsborough will be forever a more pleasant thing to to as a result of that, and is the true legacy of the people that died.

On the day,, people managing the game came under massive pressure to sort out issues caused by lack of knowledge of what they were doing, hampered by poor stadium design, a lack of understanding or how crowds behave and the number of people turning up late, with or without tickets and with too many beers in them and it caused a terrible accident in which 96 people got killed.

It was just that, an accident. The cover up afterwards has no excuses and those involved in it will face the consequences now, but won't change anything that happened on the day.

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Mike the Dagger
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Re: Liverpool - the 96

Post by Mike the Dagger » Thu Apr 28, 2016 12:33 pm

Paul from Barking wrote: And to Mike: Why apologise now? It's a long time ago (as you implied). Well it was wrong 27 years ago but for 10, 15 or 20 years as a lot of this leached out to make me think about "inconsistencies". At exactly what point my view changed I can't exactly say - but that is why I, as just an ordinary bloke from the other end of the country, who did what all mothers teach their children - namely trust the word of the police think this is the right moment to say I have felt their pain for a fair while as this has come out but the moment is here to say I am sorry I believed the police's story.

Now, having explained that, and made my own personal public apology to the people of Liverpool explaining that I'd been brought up to unquestioningly believe the words of a policeman, with respect, Mike, it's time to hang the people responsible for this from the yeard arm and punish them heavily - and to pursue them relentlessly to do so - just like they would us. 96 people died because of their negligence and stupidity is bad enough (but human beings all make mistakes - I accept that).... it is the LIES over decades! I want to be able to trust a policeman again. And Jesus Christ, I can not be the only bloke in the whole God damned country taken in by the shit they (the police) told us at the time?????

The people involved in the cover up should all face the courts and be heavily, heavily punished. Not for the "mistake" - but for denying all of us the truth and exacerbating the suffering of the families by peddling lies about them and what went on.
But the verdict this week did not change any of the facts as they had been known for ages. If you had paid any attention to the various enquiries and coroners cases in the interveing years you would know that they had long ago reached the conclusion that the original coroners verdict was flawed due to the irrational time limit put on it and that the senior police in charge had made major mistakes on the day and attempted to cover those up. This is nothing new. The only change is the "unlawful killing" verdict.

I repeat for what seems to be the 100th time now, the 96 people that died were totally innocent on the day, just caught up in a perfect storm that had been brewing for 20 years.

Trust in everything the police do and say is as irrational as distrust of everything they do or say. On the whole they can be trusted. Just occasionally they can't. Apply the filter of your intellect to decide which is which.

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